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Why does Kyle hate LOT?

UserPost

8:58 pm
November 12, 2009


evildeli

Gamer

posts 4

Post edited 10:20 pm – November 17, 2009 by Corey


Post removed by moderator.

12:26 am
November 13, 2009


liquidxtension

Gamer

posts 34

Post edited 10:20 pm – November 17, 2009 by Corey


Post removed by moderator.

7:10 am
November 17, 2009


evildeli

Gamer

posts 4

Post edited 10:20 pm – November 17, 2009 by Corey


Post removed by moderator.

7:05 pm
November 17, 2009


darkride66

n00b

posts 2

What a ridiculous claim.  No where have I have stated I have a problem with LOT.  I don't.  They're just another gaming site trying to make it with their own angle and I wish them the best of luck.


Now, as for evildeli coming on these forums and taking shots at me and name calling, that's low but consistent behavior for a coward that doesn't have the intellectual wherewithal to actually debate me on the issues I raise.  This isn't recess, and this isn't the schoolyard.


I've made my position as plain as I can.  The reason I keep bringing up those examples are because they are valid points, points – I might add, you've never even tried to refute.  The point is, given LOT's own findings as they stated, their own conclusions often raise eyebrows.  I use these 3 titles because they are the most obvious examples of such.  It draws their whole system into question.


No where have I ever said LOT falsified data, or claimed something that wasn't true.  That wouldn't be fair to their work – but at the same time it's obvious a fair amount of opinion goes into their conclusions and thus they should be treated like a review, not some truth that's beyond question.

That's my issue with these types of comparisons.  Some fanboys treat these comparisons as fact but nothing could be further from the truth.  When does loading time trump performance?  When do graphical differences trump performance?  Is mandatory install always going to be a black mark against the PS3?  Why aren't even basic brightness levels adjusted on either the 360 or PS3 for optimal settings when the game prompts the user to (because lets face it, no one is going to leave those settings alone when prompted)?  When comparing demo versions, are these the same builds?

It's all boils down to LOT's tests as colored by their own personal biases and that should never be taken like it's some kind of fact.  That's what I have an issue with.  It has nothing to do with LOT.  I find their comparisons interesting and informative, but I know not to treat them as some fact you can always bank on.  That's my point.

In the future, I'd appreciate the courtesy of responding to my statements rather then flinging mud at me personally.  I still have no idea what it is about my statements you disagree with.  Is it simply you don't think gamers should use past comparisons as a measure of the overall quality of the comparisons?  Because that's carpet chewing crazy.

6:08 am
November 18, 2009


Drew

Admin

posts 3

Post edited 6:49 am – November 18, 2009 by Drew


Darkride66(Kyle?),

First off, I’d like to apologize for the slandering of your name on our forum.  Naturally, this isn’t something we advocate, but as I’m sure you can appreciate, it’s difficult to moderate all user-generated content in an area such as a webforum.  Thank you for doing your part to make the Lens of Truth forums a more constructive place for game analysis by pointing it out.

I have to admit though, I was a little curious after reading evildeli’s post.  Who would have a problem with us?  We’re an independently funded website run by a group of guys who just love to play video games.  We all work in the business and have extensive experience not only playing games, but making them too.  Seriously, we live for it.  But as I’m sure most people can agree with; it’s so damn expensive!  Really?  $60 a game?  Who has the kind of money to spend that on all these games without some kind of guide to go on?  It gets even harder when you have multi-platform games.  Surely they have to be different in SOME way.  So as I’m sure you’ve read all over our site, we try our hardest to answer the seemingly prevalent question that motivates most of us as gamers: "Which of these is worth my sixty bucks?"  This has been the main focus for the site since it’s inception on a crappy Celeron server in Shawn’s living room almost a year ago.

So I did some digging.

Evildeli referenced n4g, so I went straight there and created an account (I know, I’m embarrassed.  I read stuff on there all the time, I just never took the time to make an account).  I searched for our articles and cross-referenced them with comments listed in your profile.  Did you know that you posted an average of 3.36 comments per article of ours dating back to September 23?  That's across 11 articles.  I read every one of them.  However, after having read all of them, I can honestly say that you definitely disagree with pretty much everything we’ve ever presented on the site.  Additionally, you even went on to write a few articles about us on your website, which at first I thought was kinda cool.  After further review though, I realized that not only do both articles say pretty much the same thing, but that they’re both (very) thinly disguised attempts to discredit what sites like Lens of Truth and Eurogamer do.  You even use the release of MW2 to springboard your campaign against comparison sites by rewriting your first article to more "appropriately" voice your disapproval of our site.  They’re well-written though, and they have an academic/journalistic style to them that I can appreciate, if not agree with. 

So you said:

What a ridiculous claim.  No where have I have stated I have a problem with LOT.  I don't.  They're just another gaming site trying to make it with their own angle and I wish them the best of luck.

and

No where have I ever said LOT falsified data, or claimed something that wasn't true

After rereading some of your comments on n4g, I have to call you on these, darkride66.  I think anyone can read your comments and come to the same conclusion.

As per our Tekken 6 analysis article:
My real beef is with those who labor under the false assumption that LOT's conclusions are beyond reproach.
 
And our MW2 article:
The problem with sites like LOT is there's usually no way of checking if they're accurate or not.
 
Or your disagreements with our earlier conclusions (BlazBlue, Wolfenstein, etc), which you manage to comment about in almost all of our articles.  Or your accusations that we break street date.  Or your articles that basically say comparison websites are worthless.

But here, I think, are your real problems with the website:

1) Some people use the Lens of Truth website (and Eurogamer website) as a tool to make an informative decision as to which multi-platform game to buy. 
2) You can’t double-check our work. 
3) You disagree with a lot of our conclusions.

First, I’d like to point you to our FAQ page.  On it, you’ll find a flowchart that describes exactly how we do our capturing and with what hardware.  I’m not sure what your expertise with A/V setups or HDMI capture devices is, but I will say some members on our staff are Subject Matter Experts in this area, and that our captures are unmodified and directly from the source.  As far as settings, games are almost always compared "out of box" (hence the flack we got for the MW2 article).  That means that we do what’s necessary to get the game running on the console, and then we analyze it.  If no install is required – we don’t install.  If color matching isn’t required – we don’t match colors.  For loading , we use a stopwatch to record a series of times to try to spot anomalies.  For performance, we’ve developed software that analyzes uncompressed video and counts unique and torn frames from a series of clips.  This can be done manually by frame-stepping through uncompressed captured video.  Tedious, but possible.

Next, I’d like to address the format of our articles.  Naturally this has been a work in progress, as I’m sure you’ve noticed since our earlier articles that you disagree with.  The site is constantly changing.  We’ve changed scoring schemes, changed scoring criteria, gotten some new hardware, added in a frame analyzer, and numerous other behind-the-scenes changes.  Is it fair to bring up our earliest conclusions as a reason why users shouldn’t value our work now?  Further, as much as you declare that our conclusions shouldn’t be trusted, who would make better conclusions based on the data that we’ve gathered?  Disagreement is going to happen.  We include all the data in our articles for users like yourself who don’t want to put their faith in a website’s opinion.  If you disagree with the conclusion, read the article and make up your own.  If you disagree with the data, feel free to refute it (or back it up).  You know how to do it, and so does everyone else.  I'm not sure sites like IGN or metacritic can say that.

Lastly, I'd like to point to our "Contact Us" form.  Like I already said, the site is constantly changing.  You don’t agree with something about the way the site reviews games.  I get that.  What don’t you agree with?  What would you like to see changed on the site?  Don’t you think that your criticisms would be better voiced (and heard) through a proper avenue like our "Contact Us", and not through 3rd party websites or our user forums?


Carpet chewing crazy,

-Drew

12:04 pm
November 19, 2009


darkride66

n00b

posts 2

Hey Drew.  What a great reply!  I have to say, my stock in your site just increased based on the strength of your response alone.

You've hit the nail right on the head.  I've definitely been playing devil's advocate when it comes to the last few comparisons.  The reason, as I stated above, isn't so much a response to your site as it is a reaction to a shift I'm noticing in gamer debate, and this shift is to treat these comparisons as fact, written in stone.  I don't think any site is above questioning and my intent was to encourage gamers to hold your feet to the fire (or any comparison site) if they find they don't agree with your conclusions.

As you've obviously seen from my posting history on N4G, I haven't agreed with some of your conclusions given the evidence you provided and that had shaken my confidence in your site.  That's a type of trust that needs to be earned, but that takes time.  You're correct, of course your site is going to change and evolve and I have noticed the changes you've made as of late, but that doesn't mean I'll instantly forget the times I felt, based off the data provided in your own articles, that your conclusions were off base.

I understand the value of your comparisons.  I do.  Something that hasn't come across is that I like your site.  I find it entertaining and I find it useful.  Unfortunately, this hasn't come across in my postings because, let's be frank here, we're far more likely to write something when we disagree than when we agree with something.  I find myself in agreement with your site far more than I find myself disagreeing with your findings, I just don't feel compelled to write about every time I agree with something.  The result has been unfair towards your site.  For that I apologize.

I believe in what you do.  I fully support a gamers right to know when one version of a title is superior to another but I want gamers to understand that what you're doing is offering your opinion based on your research.  It's opinion when you decide the weighting of fps versus screen tear versus controls versus load time.  It's opinion when you decide to compare straight out of the box without adjustments.  That's your judgment call, and it's yours alone to make.  It's your site.

My issue is with the idea that your conclusions are fact.  Now, your site has never portrayed your conclusions as unquestionable but many in the gaming forums seem to think that your site and comparisons like this are some higher power.   I feel they're no more a fact than Gamespot's review scores are fact.  It's all opinion and should be treated as such.  Your opinions are just based off different criteria.

I'm sure your data is accurate (although if you made a mistake, how would anyone know?) but therein lies another problem.  It's gamers who ignore when you say "Regardless of which version of CoD: MW2 you decide to buy, you will not be disappointed," and instead focus on "OMGz!  The PS3 framerate is 3.58 fps lower on average!  PS3  sucks!"

Of course the misuse of your data isn't within your control, but all the more reason why the informed gamer needs to take what they read with a perpetual grain of salt and form their own opinions.

Now as for using your "Contact Us" form…what a novel idea!  I have to admit somewhat sheepishly, it never occurred to me to actually offer you feedback directly.  I have a few suggestions as to what I'd like to see and I'll forward those ideas on to you and hopefully you'll offer them serious consideration.

Again, I like your site and it's improving!  I look forward to going along for the ride and seeing what you become.  I feel my criticisms are valid albeit I do admit to coming off a bit harsh towards your site.  That was intentional.  When offering opinion, if I'm Mr. NiceGuy all the time no one would read.

I'll be using your "contact us" form in the future when I have a suggestion and I encourage everyone to do the same.  Without feedback no site will ever improve.

Thanks for your reply.

Kyle Kulyk – aka Darkride66

8:06 pm
November 27, 2009


liquidxtension

Gamer

posts 34

Wow Kyle, although the post was moderated I have to apologize for my rashness earlier. I've gained alot of respect from reading both Drew's and  your responses.

7:24 pm
November 28, 2009


evildeli

Gamer

posts 4

I'm sorry my posts got deleted. Kyle is just one big contradiction. At least he's honest for his staw man tatics.


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